Matt Bowles: This is Part 2 of my interview with Melissa Noel.  If you did not yet listen to Part 1, I highly recommend you go back and do that first because it provides some very important context for this episode.  If you have already heard Part 1, then please enjoy the conclusion of my interview with Melissa Noel.

Matt Bowles: Well, I also want to talk to you about some of the Carnival celebrations. You’ve been to so many. You’ve been multiple times and you’ve really gone deep into the history and the cultural significance and all of that in your recording. I think the first thing I want to ask you about is if you can share the cultural significance of stilt walking and your personal journey learning how to do it.

Melissa Noel: Stilt walking is something that is very special to me. When we see stilt walkers, particularly in Caribbean Carnival traditions, we refer to them as Moko Jumbies. And what I love about them is they’re not just visually stunning or a visual spectacle. They are deeply symbolic and rooted in African tradition. So, stilt walkers, or Moko Jumbies, they are a type of masquerade that was brought to the Caribbean from West Africa. And the Moko Jumbies, particularly with their elevated height, they stand high above the crowds. They were known to act as spiritual protectors or the overseers of communities. And so, when we see Moko Jumbies in that masquerade tradition, we see them moving through the crowds. They are known or they have said to be the protectors of the community.

So anytime you’re seeing them, they’re usually in brightly colored clothing, they’re walking high above the crowds, they’re entertaining. And yes, now in more modern day, we see them more on an entertainment side of things. But I always love the historical context that as the fact that the tradition is that they were the overseers and protectors of the community. So, every time I see one, I get so excited because I feel like I’m seeing a protector of my community. I’m seeing a guard, a keeper of tradition. And I’ve always wanted to learn how to do it. I always wanted to learn how to stilt walk. And I kept saying for years, I’m going to do it. So, I tried it about seven years ago, I was reporting a story on a cultural organization in Brooklyn and the children were doing it. And I said, if these 7 year old are stilt walking mean I got to get it together, I have to do it too.

So, I started lessons. Back then they kept saying, it’s so easy, you’ll be doing it in five minutes. And I really thought this was a lie. But I quickly learned that it was really easy to get going. And one thing that they kept telling me is that you just have to keep moving. You must keep moving left, right, left, right. And I started to do it and I went to a couple lessons, and then life just got busy, of course, and I just, you know, didn’t do it for a while. But last summer I was in Grenada for Spice Mask and I decided to give it a try again. And just like riding a bike, I remembered everything that I had learned. And this time I was on higher stilts. And I was afraid, but I just tried and I was able to do it. And I was so proud of myself. And I said, you know what? We’re in a new year. So, this year, I should say, my goal is to really be on stilts for one Carnival. I really want to do that. And I think not only from a challenging myself standpoint, but also from a symbolism standpoint. I am a connector. I am a keeper of our stories. I would feel so proud to be able to be on stilts at Carnival, doing the damn thing. So, I’m excited about that. You made me excited about that again.

Matt Bowles: Well, let me know when that’s going down too, because that’s also a carnival that I want to be at. So, we’re going to have a number of upcoming meetups here. Melissa, I’m super excited. Speaking of Grenada, though, you have also written about the Jab Jab Carnival tradition as a symbol of black expression and liberation. For someone who has never experienced jab jab or maybe even heard of it, can you describe the ritual and then explain what most visitors miss about its political and historical meaning?

Melissa Noel: I feel like jab jab has been greatly misunderstood for many years. And I thought it really important, not just in reporting, but then also the work that Melanin Media has done. Having worked with Grenada Tourism Authority and co-producing an award-winning press trip where we would bring members of the press to Grenada during Spice Mass to experience it. Jab jab was an integral part of that experience. And it was because there’s no Caribbean Carnival tradition that is done just for the sake of it. Everything has meaning, everything has history, everything has a reason. And I thought it was very important that we share the history, the complexity and the reasons behind why you are seeing people blackening their skin and then moving throughout the streets of Grenada where you’re hearing conch shells and drumming.

And so essentially, that tradition started because when black people were enslaved in places like Grenada, in other parts of the Caribbean, because we see this tradition in Martinique as well. In other places, they were often spoken to and told that they were devils and that they were no good. They were devils, they were this, they were that. Just really derogatory. And so, what they decided to do is, like, if you say I’m a devil, essentially, I’m going to show you that. If you say that I’m bad, I’m going to show you that. So, you say, you know, black is ugly or black is what have you any negative connotation? I’m going to take what you said and I’m going to flip it on its head. And everything you say that I am or everything that you’ve tried to use to mock me and say that is not good, I’m going to turn it on its head and show you that in its face.

So, it’s like a symbolic way of flipping an insult on its head and asserting agency over yourself. So, you say, I’m black, and black is not beautiful. I’m going to get even blacker. You say, I’m a devil. I’m going to show you a devil and put on these horns. Ian Charles of Jambalasee, Grenada, who is one of those culture bearers who is really been leading the movement to demystify Jab Jab culture. And what it means is always said it’s street theater. For all the things that you said about Black people that were supposed to be negative, we’re turning it on its head and we’re showing it back to you in a form of satire. He always says, that’s why you see a lot of grotesque images. That’s why you see people and their movements. That’s why you’re seeing some of the signage that you see. That’s why sometimes you’re seeing chains or you’re seeing those kinds of things, because they’re literally taking what was said to be bad or what was meant to make them feel less than. And now I’m giving it back to you and doing it in a way that empowers me.

And so, I’ve played job probably four times now. And I have to say to you that each time it is a very moving and spiritual experience. I would encourage anybody who is interested. I think what I have seen over the last few years is with a lot more attention on it, of course, there’s going to come a lot more debate about whether a debate on, like, is this. Is this demonic? Is this something people should be doing? Or what is this? Or is it just someone’s excuse to just act crazy and I think with anything that you do, you have to come into any tradition that you want to experience anywhere you go in the world, with education first. And what I have realized is social media is a great way of spreading information and sharing, but without context, sometimes people can come and want to partake in a tradition for the wrong reasons.

So, for any traveler out there, I think jab jab is seriously a moving experience. But if you want to take part in this tradition or anyone, I think it’s really important to understand the why. And I’m so glad we’re talking about stilt walking and we’re talking about jab jab, because as you can tell, I’m not just able to say, well, I did it. I’m able to really explain what the history is. And I think that as travelers, it’s really important that we have an understanding of the things that we want to partake in before we do nothing to say that you have to now be an advocate or an ambassador for any of these things, but to have an understanding before you do them so you know why you are doing them, and then also to have a real respect and reverence for the fact that this is something that people have been doing for hundreds of years and it survived because people have respected it and have taken the time to learn how to move it forward and preserve it. So, if you want to be a part of that, it’s really important that you take the time to at least know where it comes from and know that there is no carnival tradition just for the sake of it. Everything has meaning, everything has a why. As with any culture, being able to step into that with some kind of knowledge.

Matt Bowles: And then once you have that baseline knowledge and you want to go have the carnival experience, for folks that have never been to a carnival anywhere in the Caribbean, how would you recommend if people wanted to go for a first time? I hear a lot of people talk about the Trinidad Carnival. I think that’s one of the biggest I’ve heard you say. Yeah, but my very personal favorite is the one in St. Vincent. I’ve heard other people say their favorite is another one. How would you recommend if people want to start learning about and experience this culture and go for a carnival, how do they pick one? Where should they start?

Melissa Noel: I think it depends on what you’re looking for. Some people love big crowds. It’s okay. They don’t get overly stimulated too fast. They can handle the price points, those kinds of things. And I always say, if you’ve never done Carnival before, like any kind of Carnival, I think it’s best to start with a smaller island because Trinidad Carnival is the Mecca. Trinidad is the greatest show on earth, as we all know. But that can be a lot for people, both in price point. It can be very expensive. Not only price point, but then also just trying to understand how to get your tickets for parties, how to get your costume, that can be overwhelming for folks. So sometimes it’s best to start small and it could be more within people’s budget. I suggest carnivals like a Grenada, like Dominica, like a Saint Vincent, the Grenadines, where you typically tend to get a more bang for your buck in terms of costume, what they do like, they say sometimes that you get like a four for one. You’ll get your costume package, your juve package, you can do like a traditional mass, and you’re not breaking the bank just on your costume alone. And then ticket prices for effects can be a little bit more moderately priced.

So, I always tend to say, if you’ve never had that experience, maybe start smaller so that you can gradually build up to the bigger ones, but then also understanding the destination that you’re going to, because every place is very different. So, if you want to go and experience a carnival, but then you’re a nature person, maybe you want to check out Dominica or maybe you want to go island hopping in St. Vincent, or maybe you want to go cool down in the granite, you know, just something different there. But I would say start smaller and that’s okay, and then build up. But if you’re one of those persons, you’ve got the cash and not crazy overstimulated, Trinidad is always going to be a great option, but I’m down for smaller. And then working your way up from there. And if you’ve never been and you don’t have your carnival friend like me, then go in. There are a lot of great concierge services that’ll help you plan the trip, get you the party tickets, those kinds of things. And I find that to be very helpful for people because oftentimes it’s a lot to try to figure out where you’re going to get your tickets from. Oh, how am I going to connect with the band? And then I need transport, I need this, I need that. Take the guesswork out of it. It can be a lot, especially if you don’t know the region. I mean, if that’s your thing, then fine. But for carnival especially, you want to be able to have less stress.

Matt Bowles: So, another epic event that you covered that I have to ask you about in 2023 was the first ever four alumni by alumni festival for HBCU alums in Barbados. Can you share the premise of this festival, describe what went down in Barbados and then for you personally, what were your reflections on the way that HBCU culture travels globally?

Melissa Noel: Oh my gosh. Wow. So, FABA fest, for alumni by alumni, I was invited to cover that in 2023 and it was a festival that invited HBCU alumni from all around the world to come to Barbados and to gather to not only enjoy a destination like Barbados that has a rich black culture, but also to see how we could increase alumni giving amongst HBCU alum and create pathways for Caribbean students to potentially attend HBCU. So, we got to do things like the Oyster’s fish Fry, had a great HBCU night where they had DJs from, I believe it was Texas and Atlanta were on the stage at Oistens on a Friday night playing hip hop, R and B, old school. All the things that make for the biggest and best HBCU party you could ever think of on the stage at the Fish Fryer on a Friday night and then the soca and reggae DJs mixing it up. That was incredible. We did a service day at the Shirley Chisholm Primary School where we planted a garden, we were painting with the children. It was really wonderful just to see that connection and that history with Shirley Chisholm as a Caribbean American woman and how she’s so revered and celebrated in Barbados.

There also was a college fair where Barbadian students got to come and speak to. I think it was about 10 to 12 different colleges that had representatives and I remember there were some students that got accepted when they came to that college fair. And then also just having the opportunity to speak on a panel about my experience at Howard University, how that has shaped me and the friendships I got to make with people from all over the Caribbean and why it was so important to create this kind of connection. And then we just had too so much fun. It was nothing like meeting alum from all over the U.S. who share that same affinity for where they went to school but in a destination like Barbados. So not only were we enjoying a destination, we had a shared camaraderie and I think similar to Ghana’s Year of Return, really investing in affinity groups and their shared history, connections, love of place or space or things like that. From a tourism perspective, I thought it was a really great way to connect a group of people like this. They haven’t had one since that first inaugural one, but I hope it comes back. I thought it was really a great idea and something that a lot of HBCUs would certainly tack onto and want to be a part of.

Matt Bowles: All right, Melissa, you and I need to talk about Guyana because I have not yet been to Guyana.

Melissa Noel: Come on, what are we talking about?

Matt Bowles: Listen, this is why I’m trying to get the personal recommendations from you to me right now. Other people are just going to be able to listen in on this for me and other travelers who would like to really experience Guyana properly. And keep in mind, a lot of people that listen to this podcast are digital nomads and we can just go and post up in a place for a month and reside there and have a more medium-term experience. What are your recommendations for how to experience Guyana?

Melissa Noel: Of course, the capital is Georgetown and Georgetown is known as the Garden City. It’s beautiful. There is a lot to do. But my thing is if you really want to experience and explore Guyana, you cannot just go to Georgetown. Going to Guyana and just going to Georgetown means that you did not really experience Guyana. I would say definitely take the time to explore Georgetown. One of the unique ways to do it, there’s a new company called GY. Growing up, I saw Georgetown a million times. But to actually do it, riding my bike around the city, at first, I was like, why am I doing this? I know the city. But it gave a really different perspective and I loved it. It was not like you stopping at the market, stopping by the coffee statue, stopping for a coconut water, stopping by the library. It was just really fantastic. And I love the fact that it’s young Guyanese entrepreneurs who are building out really great experiences in the capital city. So, I would definitely say do that. Guyana is known as the land of six people.

So, our food and culture are really diverse. And so, you cannot go to Guyana and not have some good Guyanese Chinese food in the brown paper bag, please and thanks. Some good Guyanese Creole food, a good roti and curry. Like, you have to make sure that you are trying our signature foods, our street food, you have to stop and get Polari egg balls. You have to make sure you are stopping to do those things. That is very important. And then once you actually and then market, the amount of fruits and fresh juices that exist, whether you go to Stabroek Market, boredom market or you just so many, you have to have a market day because the amount of fresh fruits and food that you get to experience, you just feel different, right? You really do feel different. But then I feel like Guyana really opens up once you go to the interior. I remember growing up always wanting to go to Kaieteur Falls, which is the tallest single dropped waterfall in the world. But my parents always saying, why are you going there for that small plane? And I’m like, oh my gosh, stop being so negative. Like, I want to see this.

So, you’re probably going to laugh at this. But in 2021, I decided the borders had just opened back up and I was like, I just need to be in Guyana. I need to be with my family. My sister went, my cousins, we all just were like, we’re just going to hang out in the countryside with our family and just unplug. And we said, we’re going to Kaieteur, but don’t tell our parents. So, we literally went to Ogle Airport, got on the airplane. It was a nine-seater. I’ll never forget it. Flew an hour from GT into Kaieteur National Park. And the Kaieteur Falls is truly a wonder of the world. And no matter how I can try to describe it to you, hiking up to those three points to see the waterfalls was literally one of the most incredible experiences I’ve ever had in my life. And I did not tell my parents until we landed safely back in Georgetown. And I sent them the pictures because I didn’t want them to be worried and oh, don’t do it. I just said, you know what, I want to do this. And I’m so glad that I took the opportunity and did it. And that’s just one, right?

Guyana has hundreds of waterfalls. So, I would say if you’re a nature person, really taking the time to explore some of the waterfalls. There’s hundreds of species of birds, so a lot of times I do take, I think over 800 species of birds. So, I do take the time to really explore that. And then being along the Essequibo River and really taking the time to, whether it’s going to some of the resorts that are along the Essacopo river or taking the time to go to some of the eco lodges and nature resorts. One of my favorites is Arrowpoint. And before you get to Arrow Point, you pass the Amerindian settlement and you get to see how they live. And then when you get to Arrow Point, we did biking and kayaking and fresh food. It’s just really incredible. The beauty of Guyana is really in its interior. Guyana also has a rodeo and I’ve never got a chance to go as yet, I should say yet, but it happens close to Easter time.

And it is such an incredible show of national pride and something that you would not expect. But that culture is so huge and so many people come. Easter time is such a huge time for people to visit Guyana anyway. But then having the rodeo, people going into the Rupununi and really experiencing Guyana savannas, there’s so much to see and do. But. But if you have limited time, going to Georgetown is going to be it, right? Because taking the time to go, like where my dad’s family is from is Essequibo, you have to drive to Parika and then you have to get on the ferry, get off at Supenaam and then continue. So, if you really want to experience Guyana, and I’m glad we have a lot of people who are digital nomads, you’re going to have time. You need time in Guyana. It’s not just a, oh, let me just come for a weekend kind of place. It’s a place where you really need to take time because the country is vast and it takes time to get to the real beauty.

So, take your time with Guyana, I would say. But there is so much to experience. And what I love is because it’s such a multicultural, multi ethnic country, you could go from having Chinese food over here to Creole food here, to Indian food here or someone. Or you might go home and it’s Diwali. And then the next time it’s. It’s Emancipation Day and there’s so much beauty in the culture. So, there’s so many festivals and Guyana is turning 60 this year. So, this is going to be such an incredible year, especially with a larger focus on tourism and the creative sector. I do expect to see a lot coming on board from the tourism sector. I do expect to see a lot for Guyana’s Carnival, which happened Independence weekend on independence is May 26th. So, I know that there’s a lot to see and do. And with this being the 60th independence anniversary, this is going to be a fantastic year to visit Guyana and I certainly will be there plenty.

Matt Bowles: Melissa, let me know. I mean, we’re just scheduling our meetups.

Melissa Noel: We are on trip three.

Matt Bowles: We have three trips now scheduled together. This is amazing. I’m absolutely loving it. Okay, the next question is also pretty much for myself. I’m just going to let other people listen into it, but I want to ask, ask if you can put me on to some Guyanese musical artists. Right now, I got SAINt JHN on my playlist. I want to fill it out with more, whether they’re based in Guyana, whether they’re in the diaspora. And I’m sure the listeners would be super interested as well. Would love to introduce the audience to some Guyanese artists. So, who would you put us onto?

Melissa Noel: I have a few favorites. Samuel Medas, he is actually a gospel artist. And first of all, anytime you hear Caribbean people doing gospel music, it’s such a vibe. But I love his messaging, I love his style and he’s such a great artist. So that’s gospel. But Tameka Marshall’s a great Soca artist that. I really love her music. It’s fresh, it’s vibrant and I just, I love Soka, so she’s really dope. Adrian Dutchen, of course, he’s been a long-time multiple road march winner in Guyana and he continues to put out hit after hit after hit. And I really appreciate how not only is the music good, but often how he’s just such a big ambassador for Guyana and Guyanese culture. So, I really do enjoy his music quite a bit here in the diaspora. One really great artist, her name is Nekeita, she’s more of R&B, soul kind of vibe and I really love her voice, her range and the kind of music that she does. Another great Guyanese artist, Poonam Singh, she has really great music as well. And Jackie Jaxx, like some of our female songstresses, they are really powerhouse voices. I don’t feel like they get the credit that they deserve on the larger music scene. But I really hope people take the time to listen because Guyana has such incredible talent and I really hope people take the time to look them up, stream them, support the music. They have incredible bodies of work. I remember getting to see Samuel in Queens last year when he was on tour and it was just really nice to see a sold-out show for him. And then there’s the DemRoc Music Awards over the last couple of years that has specifically been highlighting, amplifying and awarding Guyanese musicians in different categories. And I think it’s really great to see. And as you can hear, I’m a Soca girl. So, I love Soca and I love reggae very much.

Matt Bowles: All right, we are going to link those up in the show notes. They’re definitely going on my playlist so I can be thoroughly fluent in all of this music. By the time we do our trip to Gaeta, by the time we get.

Melissa Noel: On our third trip, right, that’s what’s up.

Matt Bowles: Then we’re going to be able to talk about it. I’m going to tell you my favorite songs all the time. The whole thing.

Melissa Noel: So, I love the fact that you’re rocking to SAINt JHN. I love that no matter where he goes, what he does, he is Guyanese through and through as an effortless representation. I just really appreciate that.

Matt Bowles: Yeah. If anybody is not yet listening to SAINt JHN, we will link him up in the show notes as well. Highly recommended. Melissa, I want to dive in now to some of the reporting that you’ve done, some of the media work and experiences that you have had. I think the place I want to start with this is to ask you about Captain Theresa Claiborne. For people that don’t know that name, can you share who she is, what it was like interviewing her for Essence magazine? And then I understand you actually got to fly on her final flight. So, can you share that experience?

Melissa Noel: Captain Theresa Claiborne is a powerhouse of a woman. She retired from United Airlines after 34 years as a pilot. And that is historical within itself. But she was the first black woman to be a pilot in the Air Force. And her story, the barriers she broke, the things that she did, were just so incredible. So, I got an email asking if I would be interested in interviewing her before her final flight and joining her on it. And I believe it was probably like a Thursday or a Friday. And the flight to Portugal, which was her final flight as a United Airlines pilot, was on the Monday night. And it was just so surreal. But I always think in those moments when it’s like, can you do this today for tomorrow? I think those are some of the most incredible stories and experiences that I’ve had. So, I saw the email. I reached out to a colleague because I knew I needed to get social video. And I literally said, can you come to Portugal on Monday? And she says, yes. I rushed to Newark Airport to interview Captain Claiborne the day before so that we could get an exclusive story out for essence. I’m rushing to the airport. I parked real fast, ran into the airport, go through security, sit down, do the interview. I wrote the story, I’m packing my clothes, and the next night I’m on a flight to Portugal.

And it was so incredible to see black pilots come from all across the country to celebrate a woman who has not only broken barriers in her own career, but helped launch the career of so many black pilots, particularly black women. She actually co-founded an organization called Sisters of the Skies that works to increase the amount of black women pilots by ensuring that there’s mentorship, there’s scholarship, there’s those kinds of things. That was the biggest gate celebration I’ve ever seen with all these pilots. I get on the fly, we go to Portugal, and they have this huge retirement party for her. I met other pilots; we toured Lisbon and it was a two-day turnaround. I never thought I would go to Portugal just for two days. And I’m traveling with this group of people who are its literally history that we’re seeing before us. And it was one of those experiences that, that I think that I will always take with me. Because you saw the power in impact. You saw the power in the impact she’s made throughout her career and the impact she’s had on so many young women who are pilots who said, I wouldn’t be here if not for you.

And you saw a career well done. We landed back at Newark Airport and the entire executive team from United Airlines have flown into Newark, New Jersey to celebrate her and the cameras from all the news crews. It was just one of those things that reminded me travel can take you so many places, not only physically, but the impact that however you choose to move about your career in travel and the stories you tell, it can impact people for generations. And I saw that in what she did. So now she’s retired and she’s speaking and she’s doing some travel. But I think that what I got from being able to tell that story is that you don’t have to wait for somebody to tell you it’s okay to do the thing that you want to do. You got to take it by the horns. And in the process, you’re going to inspire other people. And seeing how she’s inspired women all over the country and getting to tell that story for essence, for her, it was her dream publication. So, for me, getting to write that as she set on her next chapter in life, priceless.

Matt Bowles: Well, one of the most powerful stories that you did that really hit me emotionally as I was watching your videos, was your Pulitzer supported and award-winning series on the barrel children of Jamaica. For people that have never heard this term, can you explain what it means? And then take us on your journey in terms of why you felt this story was so important to report on and that then what you learned as you were doing the project.

Melissa Noel: Yeah, working on the barrel stories project was a career defining project for me. A barrel child is a child who is left behind by a parent who migrates to another country for economic mobility, right. Or economic forward movement. But what makes the child a barrel child is that they lack emotional connection or support from their parent. So yes, there are parents who may migrate to another country. But they have still really great emotional bonds. They’re in touch, they’re connected, they see the child, those kinds of things. But what makes them a barrel child is that lack of emotional connection and support between a parent and child. This started in 2015, where I went to a movie screening for Caribbean filmmakers, and one of the stories that was told there was by a Barbadian filmmaker that told the story of a barrel child who was left behind in Barbados when her mom moved to England, and the shift in the dynamic and the tension that it caused in their relationship.

Now, while that story she told was fictional, what that film did was present a really common issue that we see in Caribbean families, where people do often have to migrate for economic reasons. And speaking to Lisa Harewood, who did that short film, then also interviewing young women who were left behind by parents in Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago, and the way that it impacted them from a mental health perspective, I knew that there was a larger story there that I should be telling one because mental health is often something very taboo in our communities. And also, because I had never thought about the impact. It was something so normal, like, I have cousins whose parents live up here, they’re in Guyana, or, you know, you have friends who. That was their story. It was just something so normal. But I never had stopped to think about how that could impact someone’s mental health, or it impacts your familial bonds or how you parent when you become a parent yourself. And that forced me to look at it in a different way.

So, I thought that there was a bigger story there. I reached out to the sociologist who coined the term barrel child, Dr. Claudette Crawford Brown. She is now retired, but at the time she was at the University of the West Indies in Jamaica. I reached out to her to get some more background on it, and she grilled me. I mean, she grilled me, and she definitely should have. I really appreciated that about her because she wanted to ensure that whoever was going to be reporting on something, that she’s been working with families longer than I’ve been alive, and she wanted to ensure that I understood the nuance and that this was not something being done by selfish people or bad parents or anything like that. People were making very difficult decisions to leave their children behind because they were literally trying to do the best that they could. But in trying to do something great for their children, there were unintended consequences. And her work tried to ensure that families could navigate these new chapters in a really delicate way that still keeps familial bonds Intact.

And so, I knew I had a story that needed to be told in a larger way, because up until my reporting at that point, there was a lot of the stuff that I saw online was academic journals for the most part, and maybe one or two stories in the mid-90s, but nothing really comprehensive and also what’s happened since. So, I thought I really should take a look at this. And that’s what I did. I started with some local stories with when I was a reporter at Voices of New York covering the Caribbean community in New York City. And then I applied for my grants, one from the International Centers for Journalists. And I did get that one. So that was the first one. But I knew this was going to be a bigger project. So then I applied to the Pulitzer center and I got the additional funding I needed to spend about a month in Jamaica and also time in Miami and of course across New York City doing this reporting. And I also was able to get a grant from USC center for Health Reporting that helped me to do community engagement in Caribbean communities after the series came out, so we could engage communities with professionals like sociologists, like therapists and social workers to speak with families and help them through these transitions. I thought the reporting was so important because these are people who have been through a lot of trauma. And it taught me how to truly take traumatic experiences and ensure that we were telling people stories with empathy, care and balance.

Matt Bowles: Your interviews with the Barrel children themselves really hit me emotionally, but I thought you executed it masterfully. And as a fellow interviewer, I’m wondering if you can take us behind the scenes and talk about the ethical considerations as well as the prep work for interviewing vulnerable groups, in this case children, many of whom are experiencing trauma relating to the very topic that you’re asking about.

Melissa Noel: Yeah, this is an incredible question because I think so often nowadays, we see that there is a lot of trauma happening in the world. You may come across someone who’s experienced a really traumatic event. I think it’s incredibly important that you take care with people who are experiencing trauma or some kind of life changing event. So how I approach the Love in a Barrel series and interviewing Barrel children as I did a couple of things. One was I never went into any interview without a licensed social worker being present to ensure that the questions weren’t being intrusive, that the children felt comfortable, that there was some semblance of, hey, we are thinking about you. I also made sure ahead of time I got permissions from the school and from parents. Everyone signed release forms, because we had to ensure that people knew what the story was going to cover, what it was going to be about, and that there was no gotcha moments, right. That’s really important because we’re talking about a part of someone’s life and often a very difficult part of someone’s lives.

And when I was interviewing children, I also made sure that I didn’t start the conversations off by diving into, so what’s it like to not have your mom or dad around? I used a lot of things that we may have had in common. I talked about reggae music. I talked about football. I tried to talk to them like I would talk to my niece or nephew first and then get into the conversation. And I think, especially with telling this series of stories, it was incredibly important that I did that. So, it didn’t feel like I’m just trying to ambush them with a bunch of questions about a really difficult part of their lives. I also tried my best. It didn’t happen in every instance, but we tried to speak. Speak to parent and child as much as we could so we could hear both sides. That did not always happen. And if we didn’t have the opportunity to speak to a parent, then we would try to speak to a caregiver. So, whether that was the aunt or the grandmother, father, whomever the child was being taken care of at the time we did that.

Those were things that we made sure were intentional parts of our interviewing process, to both be mindful of what we were doing, but then also to be respectful. And I think a lot of that came from working directly with Dr. Claudette Crawford Brown and getting her insight as a social worker and understanding the mental health impact. And yes, wanting to share a part of this person’s story but not exploit it, that was really important to me, and I think that we did a good job of that. I can’t remember, though. You’re always going to get pushback from people when you do stories like this. But we approached it in a really respectful way. And there were people that, after we did interview, they decided they no longer felt comfortable. And with that, we didn’t include them. You can find someone else. I always feel like that you can find someone else. You don’t have to do it if someone’s no longer comfortable, and that’s okay, too.

Matt Bowles: Can you talk about the impact of the story on you personally? Is there, for example, a particular conversation with a child or a parent or grandparent from that project that still sticks with you today?

Melissa Noel: Yeah, there are two. There’s a father and son that I interviewed in part two of the series. I can’t think of their names right now, but the father would have left Jamaica when his son was probably just a couple days old and he got a visa. He came to the U.S. to work. And yes, he sent everything back. And he would speak to his son regularly, but he only saw him a few times over the years until his son, I believe, turned 16. And then his son moved to the U.S. moved to the Bronx to live with him. But that’s when they recognized that you’re talking to this person on the phone, he’s sending you things, but then you’re in a household together and you really do not know each other. And they recognized that they had to actually learn each other. And their church actually provided them with counseling to adapt to these changes.

And that really stuck with me because you never really think about, that’s my dad, that’s my mom, but you actually have to get to know someone, parent or not. And I had never thought about it in that way, but seeing how that father and son really made it a point to develop their relationship, heal their relationship, go to therapy, meet with the counselor. And now the son, he actually went into social work and he helps other families. And I will never forget that story because I thought it was just an example of how if you take the time to really look at what may be causing an issue in any relationship and pour into it, what can come of that. Another one that really stuck with me has to be Kelly Ann Lindo. And she’s an artist. And when I met her, she actually was doing exhibits at a museum in Jamaica about the life of Barrell children. And she said she loves her parents, they’ll always be her parents, she always appreciates them, but the love and connection that her mom would want just isn’t there. And it’s not because she doesn’t love them, it’s not because they didn’t do for her. But her grandparents raised her, and that’s who she has the affinity to.

And I never forgot that because she wanted people to understand that she doesn’t fault her parents for the decisions they made to assist their family. But she also was very real about the fact that you can’t now expect me to have this closeness to people who didn’t raise me. And so, it just brought up a lot of really interesting but important insights into how relationships are impacted when there’s not a physical or in person connection with your parents on a regular basis, and how that does impact bonds. The other thing that really sticks out to me is how the experiences of people who were barrel children and how it impacts how they parent now. I remember talking to some moms about how they say that they don’t show as much affection because they were afraid if the minute, they start showing affection to somebody, they’re going to leave. So that trauma stuck with them. And that’s something I’ve learned about from the social workers and how they’re trying to break those bonds.

But that’s really hard, that they have a hard time trusting people because they think people are going to leave them behind. So, it was just interesting to see how it manifested differently for different people, but why it was so important that this is a topic that is not only talked about, but that there’s support. And that’s why I was really proud of the fact that we did community engagement events in New York City to bring people like the father and son together. We brought Dr. Brown up from Jamaica. We had social workers there to meet with families. We showed films from across the Caribbean that spoke to barrel children. And it was something that I thought had a lot of impact.

Matt Bowles: Well, this project won multiple awards and eventually landed you a presentation at the United Nations on this topic. Can you talk about that experience and the wider reaching, positive impact of this project?

Melissa Noel: I never expected all of that to come from this project, but I think it just speaks to the importance of understanding that not because something is taboo, it doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be explored and discussed and talked about, but you definitely have to go about it in the right way, being able to first, I won a Labor and Migration reporting recognition from the United Nations Labor Organization. And that was really moving because it really shed a light on what we know. Migration will always happen. But the Caribbean stories about migration and its impact wasn’t something that was heavily focused on and then being invited to present at the United Nations. What that did was not only give me a chance to present, but also for people who were voting on important migration policy to hear about the impacts this is having on Caribbean families specifically. And that impact is priceless because these were the people who were going to vote on policies that would impact migration efforts or sometimes the visa programs that we see that might bring families, that might bring a person to U.S., UK and Canada, but not necessarily families, family members. It also had impact on how they voted on social programming to have social workers and things like that.

So, it was such an important opportunity to be able to share the findings that we got from the reporting and then through the community engagement, what it meant for families, because it would have had a direct impact on how these people were going now have information as they went to vote on migration policy. I will never forget how impactful that was. Also, what took place is Dr. Brown, Dr. Claudette Crawford Brown had been trying for so many years to get funding to start a migration policy institute at the University of the West Indies. And after this series came out, she got that funding. And I can’t even truly explain what it meant to see her get that not only rightful recognition, but families get that kind of support. Because it’s not that this was not known about, but sometimes I think it may take just another push or another story or someone to come with a different lens. I’m not sure, but I think the impact that those two things have had is impact that will outlive both of us. And I think that when you think about wanting to do impactful work, I can never have imagined it would have gone that far. But I’m glad that it did because it’s helping families in ways that I could have never even thought about.

Matt Bowles: Melissa, you have covered the Black Lives Matter movement for over a decade in the U.S. and you’ve also covered it with a Caribbean and diasporic lens. What did you see the mainstream U.S. coverage was missing? And why do you think those Caribbean perspectives are so often left out of the conversation?

Melissa Noel: I think in my reporting on the Black Lives Matter movement, I thought it was really important to show how the movement manifested globally. Yes, it started in America, and we saw how it inspired black people all over the world to really push back against a lot of the injustices, inequality, racism, and so many other things that we were seeing. And I think especially after the death of George Floyd, his murder in 2020, during the pandemic, we saw how the Black Lives Matter movement really inspired a lot of people in the Caribbean, in the UK and all across the global Black Diaspora, to really push back against colonialism, to push back against racism. And what we saw take root in the Caribbean is the push by local activists for the removal of colonial statues, right. We can think about places like Barbados and Heroes Square that literally had a statue of a slave master in their Heroes Square. And so many people were like, that doesn’t make sense.

Shouldn’t our hero heroes be the people that fought for Barbadian people? Shouldn’t our heroes be those that fought against injustice, not caused harm to our people? So, we saw that take shape in places like Barbados, in the Bahamas, in Trinidad and Tobago, in Jamaica and I thought that it was really important that this regional movement that spoke to injustice and inequality and the experiences of Black Caribbean people was not left out of the conversation. Because oftentimes we tend to think about, yes, we know that often many of the models are one people, we’re all one. And yes, that is there. But we can’t ignore the fact that there is racism, classism, colorism, things that are affecting Caribbean people every single day. And I thought that it was really important that stories told within that context confronted those things that people were confronting on the ground.

So, in speaking to activists across the region, you got that sentiment that not only did they identify with what was happening in terms of the Black Lives Matter movement in the US Is that we’re facing those things too. And I thought that was such an important part of the story to tell, because again, when we. We talk about connecting the dots, showing how we’re connected, those are some of those lived experiences, and they cannot be left out of the conversation. At least I don’t think so.

Matt Bowles: And when you started reporting on these issues, what kinds of tensions or contradictions did you see emerge in Caribbean societies when people started asking, what does Black Lives Matter mean here?

Melissa Noel: You know, I think it really builds on some of what we started talking about already in the Caribbean. Many people often identify first, first with nationality before race. That actually has been a good thing overall, because we understand and we appreciate the multi ethnic, multi religious communities that do exist. But then also, what the Black Lives Matter forced a lot of people to reckon with across the region are the deep legacies of colonialism, classism, colorism, things that sometimes are just not as often acknowledged because of those sentiments. And so, it really forced people to take a hard look at a lot of the things that still exist that sometimes get kind of pushed aside. And instead, it forced real conversations. It forced governments to respond to citizens. People were taking to the streets in a way that we hadn’t seen in quite a long time, and people responded. I can remember speaking to an activist from Barbados in particular, who was petitioning Prime Minister Mia Mottley to remove that statue from Heroes Square and Barbados, and the Prime Minister actually responding and that statue actually coming down.

And that being something that really signaled that people weren’t just there for writing a letter and hoping to hear back. They were saying, no, we need to see action. And there was response, right? It forced response in a way that I think was really tangible for people. And then it led to a lot more forward movement in terms of, when you think about the reparation’s movement in the Caribbean especially, there’s a Caricom 10-point plan for reparation, and we’ve seen that progress, especially in the last five years. We’ve also seen a lot of Caribbean and American collaboration as it relates to the call for reparations in the two places. And it’s been, I think, really gratifying to see black America and black people in the Caribbean really working together for that common good or that common call for reparatory justice, because it is something that is different in the two places. Right. But the calls for reparatory justice and why people are calling for it are the same. And I think that collective action is certainly needed. And that movement, that Black Lives Matter movement and everything that has come from it, I think helped spur that spirit of collaboration that was really, really significant and important.

Matt Bowles: Can you explain about the extractive neocolonial dynamics that are at play in the tourism industry in the Caribbean and then share some recommendations for people that would like to be intentional about visiting responsibly, sustainably, and ensuring that local people benefit.

Melissa Noel: Tourism certainly brings an incredible amount of dollars into the region, but the reality is that those benefits don’t always reach local communities who are keeping the culture, the food, the traditions and what have you alive. We often look at how a lot of times money can stay with large resorts or cruise lines or international operators, but not necessarily trickle down to the people that make these places unique. And so, I think for travelers who want to visit responsibly and really support the destinations that they are potentially embarking upon, I always take the time to go beyond your hotel. Be intentional about booking local tour operators, booking the local eco lodge, or maybe it’s spending a couple days in the hotel and doing something that’s locally owned. Some of the best memories I have and some of the greatest friends I’ve made have been from staying at the locally owned family properties where I get to not only know the people in the place a little better, but you make your friends that way.

Also really taking the time to embrace and enjoy community festivals, not just the big commercialized parts of a carnival experience, but taking some time on your next carnival, if your first carnival trip or your next carnival trip, volunteering with a mass band, especially traditional mass bands, where people are still making things by hand, really understanding why traditions like jab, jab and stilt walking hold such reference. I can think about being at a mass camp in Trinidad and just seeing the Moko Jumbies practicing and just how much reverence they hold for the tradition and really embodying the spirit of the masquery. And I think those are not only some of the best experiences you have, but how you really can help in terms of contributing to local culture, culture and country and place and also how you can help benefit local communities. And I really, I’m such a proponent of that. My parents used to always say they would worry about me because I was always off somewhere.

But over the years I think they’re so comfortable now knowing they’re always saying, Melissa has a cousin everywhere. And I love that they say that because not only have I been intentional with my time and where I spend it, but I’ve also taken the time to form relationships. And forming those relationships means that no matter where I go in this world, I literally always have somebody I can call on. I love that people say, hey, I’m going to X, Y and Z country. Do you know somebody there that can pick me up from the airport? Do you know somebody that can help me with a tour? Do you? Yes, actually I do. And so, in doing that, you’re supporting local families, you’re supporting local economies and you’re supporting the sustainability of local culture. And that to me is better than any let me give you this review of these five stars or something. And there’s a place for that always.

And I’m not going to sit up here and say I don’t enjoy the luxuries too. But I think that in any trip you have is really important to support the people that make a place a place. Because even without all those things, when you hear people talk about what made a trip special, more often than not, you’re not going to hear them talk about the room was so amazing and this and that. You hear them talk about the people and you hear them talk about unforgettable experiences with people and with celebrations or things like that. And so, if you take the time to do that, I feel like that is how you really support in a way that is authentic and not just let me just, just donate to this thing. You’re actually embracing people and putting money in their pockets locally.

Matt Bowles: Well, Melissa, I also of course have to ask you about your amazing company, Mel&N Media. You founded it in 2021, you’ve been banging out award winning campaigns. By 2024, you were named one of the top 50 Caribbean American entrepreneurs. Can you share a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey, what you’re up to now, what types of clients you work with and what people can expect moving forward.

Melissa Noel: So, yeah, I founded Mel&N Media in 2021, and I really found it because I was at a unique space in my career journey. You know, I had been in network news, worked as a correspondent across the Caribbean. Then I got laid off and I’m figuring out what’s next. And I knew that for me, it was bigger than a newsroom. I knew that there was a growing demand for authentic, culturally grounded storytelling and strategy. And I knew that based on my experience both as a journalist, but then also having had a PR background and understanding media strategy as a producer as well, that there was a place for integrating my journalism background and creative production and the fact that I have this unique cultural fluency to produce these campaigns and to not just work with newsrooms, but work with brands and tourism boards and cultural institutions. And I said, you know what? I should just go for it. And so that was essentially how Mel&N Media was born.

And so, I have worked with clients such as Grenada Tourism Authority, Caribbean Travel and Tours, the Pulitzer Center. I’ve worked at the ESSENCE Festival of Culture, where I served as an editorial lead for ESSENCE Authors and the Global Black Economic Forum for about four years. And what I love about what I get to do is that I’m getting to use all my skills in creative production and journalism, but I’m also getting to bring that traveler’s lens to it as well, but really, like, pump up that storytelling aspect and from a really authentic space that I think so many more people are hungry for, especially now, where, yes, we’re in the age of AI and yes, and can do things a lot faster, but people are really craving real life, real world things. And I think that what Mel&N Media does so well is to meet people where they are and not be too able. Afraid to be specific. And that advice that I got back in the day where I was told I was going to pigeonhole myself. No, like, that’s exactly what makes Mel&N Media so successful, because we understand that there is a place for cultural fluency, creative production, they meet and we can bring commerce into that and be successful. Like, you don’t have to choose one or the other. And I think we’ve done, done a really good job at that.

Matt Bowles: Melissa, let me ask you one more question and then we’ll wrap this up and move into the lightning round. When you think back about all of the travel you have now done at this point in your life, how has all of that impacted you as a person and why are you so passionate about continuing to travel? What does travel mean to you today?

Matt Bowles: Travel for me is freedom. Travel for me means that I never stop learning, that I never stop growing. And I think that in anything that you do, if you don’t continue to grow and to learn, you get stuck. And so always traveling means that I’m always going to be challenged. I’m always going to be put in situations where I have to learn and to grow and to be amongst different people and to figure it out. And I think that is so freeing because I’m not going to stay in a box or be boxed in because travel forces you to grow. And that is one of the biggest lessons I think I’ve gotten. And it gives my work so much perspective because when you have to learn how to navigate different cultures, languages, how people move and do things, whether it’s business or personal, to me, it keeps you in the know and it keeps you ahead because you always have to think in a different mindset.

Matt Bowles: Well, I think that is the perfect place to end the main portion of this interview. And at this point, Melissa, are you ready to move in to The Lightning Round?

Melissa Noel: I’m ready.

Matt Bowles: Let’s do it. All right what is one book that you would recommend that people should read?

Melissa Noel: I Will Teach You to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi. And I love that book. I know it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with journalism or go travel, but what I loved about the book is that it taught me how to build systems to make my money work for me. Journalism school did not teach me how to be good with my contracts or be good with my money. I had to learn by trial and error. But by building really great systems for my money, it helped me to reach the kind of financial freedom that I’ve always wanted. It helped me to be a smarter business owner, especially when I started to hire people and I’m looking at my expenses of how they coming in and out and to be more profitable, but also to not be, oh my God, I can’t spend on this. I can’t do that. He always says, what is your rich life? And I love that because your rich life looks different for everybody. And for me, part of my rich life is being able to pick up and go and travel where I want, when I want and not having to say, I can’t afford this. By really taking those systems into account the last two years, especially paying off all my credit card debt, investing, getting the student loan debt under control, and then just growing sources of income with clients, things like that, it’s really helped me to create that part of my rich life where if I want to go and get on the flight tomorrow, I can go and get on a flight tomorrow and I don’t have to think about it. And that kind of freedom is. Money can’t buy that kind of freedom. It can’t.

Matt Bowles: Exactly. Like when you hit me up to go to Montserrat and I’m like, yup. And then we just go.

Melissa Noel: And then we just go. And you know what? I thought about another one as I was mentioning that. And I just want to mention this one. It’s called the Art of Gathering. And I really love it because as somebody who is building spaces, community, creative production, I’m always planning festivals and panels. I thought it was a really great book where she talks about gatherings just don’t have to be mundane and routine or forgettable. Gatherings should really be special and leave an indelible mark. So, when I am working on my campaigns or when I’m working with a client, I’m always thinking about not only how do we execute this campaign, but how do we make it memorable and how do we create community around it? Because that is what makes impact. Barrel Children created community. It wasn’t just the stories; it was the community engagement we did in the Caribbean communities. That’s why it’s. It’s still being cited in academic journals, or it’ll pop up on podcasts, or it was even mentioned in a movie, because we created not just the reporting, but a community. And I think those books have taught me freedom from financially and then also mindset for how to move things forward. You can’t just think in a vacuum of, let me create this video or this content. How am I creating something bigger?

Matt Bowles: All right, we’ll link them both up in the show notes. Melissa, if you could have dinner with any one person who you’ve never met that’s currently alive today, just you and that person, for an evening of dinner and conversation. Who would you choose?

Melissa Noel: I think it would be for me, Ava DuVernay. And I would say that because the way that she has been able to masterfully build a career on telling stories that have been often overlooked or under covered, and then create a production company that has not only gets to do that full time, but then creates opportunities for other people in the industry as well. I would love to talk to her about that because that’s where I feel like it’s the next iteration of Mel&N Media. And I would love to be able to listen to her trajectory, how she’s done it, and just kind of get that insight. I think it would be all right.

Matt Bowles: Knowing everything you know. Now, if you could go back in time and give one piece of advice to your 18-year-old self, what would you say to 18-year-old Melissa?

Melissa Noel: Oh, I would tell 18-year-old Melissa, first things first, that you have time. I thought that I had to do everything. If I didn’t have it all done by 25, then it was over for me. And I realized very quickly once I got into the real world that a lot of people will try to tell you that what your dream is isn’t attainable or means that it’s not going to work in this way because that’s not how it worked out for them. But you have to be very, very willing to push back against how other people try to limit your dreams. And if I knew that sooner, I wouldn’t have waited so long to do the things I’m doing now. But I’m glad that I did them. So, I would tell 18-year-old Melissa, you have time and don’t let anybody push their fears onto you. Just keep going and doing what you’re doing.

Matt Bowles: For a young Caribbean or black diaspora journalist who wants to tell complex stories about home and migration, what is one piece of advice you could offer them?

Melissa Noel: You have to have depth so often. I’ve spent many years teaching as well, and one thing I noticed, especially in this age of social media and AI, is the want to just do something quick, get a couple notes and put it out there. And no matter how many great clips you can have, if you don’t have depth, if you don’t have frame of reference, if you don’t have historical knowledge, that stuff disappears really quickly because people start to see through it. People see and understand when you’re only there just because you want to get this quick sound bite or you want to get this, I don’t know, you want to go viral. But if you have depth and nuance and you actually care about what you’re doing, it may take you a little longer, but you will get there. And I see so often with younger content creators, journalists, what have you, it’s just the I want to go viral. I need to have a following. What you need is depth. And depth really comes over time and with actually giving a damn about the people and the places that you’re covering and people can smell the BS a mile away.

Matt Bowles: All right, Melissa, of all of the places you have now traveled, what are three of your favorite destinations you would most recommend, other people should definitely check out.

Melissa Noel: I mean of course you have to go to Guyana because that is home. That Guyana grounds me in a way that I can’t even explain. It just makes me feel at peace, one with myself and whole. And I really think it is such a beautiful, underrated country that you would really enjoy. So please check out Guyana, especially returning 60 this year. I will always have a very special affinity for St. Vincent and the Grenadines. So, I would definitely say to check out SBG, especially going to the Grenadine Islands and really taking some time to be off grid. I always call it my little slice of heaven. So, I hope you get to carve out your little slice of heaven there. And then third. Wow, that’s tough. I feel like after that experience in Brazil, I have to say Brazil. I have to say Brazil. It was one of those experiences that I’m telling everybody you got. I see what the hype is about. I get why everybody loves it, and I think that you will too. And I have to get back there. I hope to get back there sometime this year.

Matt Bowles: All right, hit me up when you want to go back to Brazil as well. I’m always down for Brazil.

Melissa Noel: Trip four. We’re on trip four.

Matt Bowles: So that’s now four. We got four trips this year. All right, last question. Top three bucket list destinations. Places you have not yet. Not yet been highest on your list you’d most love to visit.

Melissa Noel: My gosh. Tanzania, Mauritius, and I really want to go to Indonesia.

Matt Bowles: Amazing. All right, Melissa, at this point, I want you to let folks know how they can find you, how they can follow you on social media, how we can follow along Destination Diaspora and learn about what is coming up with that. How would you like people to come into your world?

Melissa Noel: Thank you for that. I am @livefrommelissa across Instagram, Facebook, all those platforms. And then Destination Diaspora is just at Destination Diaspora. The Destination Diaspora website will be up and running soon. I’m really excited about that. But for right now, the content is on social Destination Diaspora. So, I’m really excited about what’s to come from that. I winning that competition. Show me nothing before it’s time, but that when it is your time, you got to move. So, I’m excited to move on that.

Matt Bowles: All right, we are going to link everything we have discussed in this conversation up in one place. Just go to themaverickshow.com go to the show notes for this episode. You’ll find all the ways to find, follow, and connect with Melissa as well as direct links to everything else we have mentioned and discussed. Melissa, I think you are absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Melissa Noel: Thank you for having me. I cannot believe that I’m the first guest for the new year. I’m excited about that. But thank you for thinking enough of my story to feature me on the podcast. That’s so cool.

Matt Bowles: Well, it was amazing to have you, and now I’m super excited about our four upcoming trips that we have together. So maybe we’ll record a round two in one of those other destinations. So, I will look forward to that. But so great to have you on the show, and good night, everybody.