INTRO: This is part two of my interview with Dr. Anu Taranath. If you have not listened to part, highly recommend you go back and do that first because it provides some really important context for this episode. If you have already listened to part one, then please enjoy the conclusion of my interview with Dr. Anu Taranath.
Matt Bowles: I want to talk to you now about your book, Beyond Guilt Trips: Mindful Travel in an Unequal World. Can you share a little bit about what prompted you to write this particular book and what was your goal with this book when you decided to write it?
Anu Taranath: I wrote my book because I hadn’t seen anything else like it. In fact, on the very first page, I quote Toni Morrison and one of her most famous quotes saying, if there’s a book that you’ve been wanting to read that you haven’t seen, perhaps you must write it. And so that’s where Beyond Guilt Trips came from. I was having hundreds of conversations with student travelers as well as travelers of all different sorts about the very complicated feelings that they were having when encountering and navigating difference. Racial difference, differences in class, differences in a community’s wealth, prosperity or lack of different communities, resources, and traveling, though it opens our minds and hearts as soon as we cross borders.
If you don’t really have the conversations that help you process all that’s coming up for you, travel can also close minds and hearts quite quickly. Just because you travel doesn’t necessarily mean you remain open minded. It’s what you do with your travel experience and how you process it that can actually move us in a direction that keeps us curious and humble and connected. And these were the conversations that I was having. And as I began to look around, I didn’t see anything quite like it. I didn’t know also that what I was writing would actually turn into a book. I started a Word document and my kids were smaller at the time and I would have seven-minute chunks of free time every now and then to write. And so, these stories were volcanoes in me. So much was coming up.
And so, I used the document as simply a place to hold it because I didn’t know how to hold it in my own mind and heart anymore. And at some point, I remember looking at the document that was now several pages long thinking, I don’t see this conversation taking place. I’m having it and a couple folks are having it. But I’m not seeing the travel industry, study abroad, educational tourism, any of these communities grappling earnestly with issues of power, identity, privilege, history, who we are, who we aren’t, and what it all means and how it can make us feel. That part is key. Not just what it means, but how it makes us feel and how we can navigate better through it. So that’s what my book is about and that’s why I wrote it.
Matt Bowles: It is certainly the only book that I have ever seen that is anything like this, which is why it is my most recommended book. And if anybody has not read it, don’t definitely encourage you to pick it up. There’s an audio version if you like the audiobook which you yourself read, Anu which is so wonderful, or whatever format you want to get it, but highly encourage people to read it.
I want to read you one of my favorite passages from your book that I can remember walking around listening to the audiobook in Cape Town, South Africa and this passage stopped me in my tracks and let me read you what it is. “As travelers we seek difference and pay a premium to ensure we will find it. We hope for real and authentic experiences. What else do we do with difference once we find it? We consume difference, flirt with difference, and sometimes assimilate and discipline difference into something that’s not so different. We ogle and worry over and are attracted to and avoid difference. We photograph and frame, tag and like difference. We obsess about difference, eroticize, embed difference. We commodify and celebrate difference as long as that difference doesn’t marry our daughters, buy homes near ours, or challenge our power”. Mic drop, Anu. I stopped walking when I heard that and I rewound it to play it again and then I sat down to like to type out the quote because it hit me that hard.
Anu Taranath: That’s super lovely to hear your response and reaction to that? What I find curious is that the words that I’ve used in that section are so simple and yet the processes behind them are mammoth. And we’re all part of that system, whether we are nice people or not. We’re all part of broader systems, which is somewhat comforting to me because I can’t do everything on my own. And it’s also humbling to me because we need a lot of people to get together to change systems.
Matt Bowles: I also want to ask you about the importance of stories, which is something that I know you and I both share and put a lot of value on. I try to platform a lot of people on this podcast that have had a lot of different life experiences and platform them to tell their stories. And people can learn about the world through other people’s stories. And I’m curious for you, if you can share, why are stories and storytelling, why is that so important for you? And why did you choose to make that such a central part of your book and the way that you wrote the book?
Anu Taranath: I don’t know another way in which we are compelled as we are when we hear stories from one another. This is the language of connection. It’s the language of empathy. It’s the language of stretching ourselves to see where the borders of me and the borders of you begin. And it’s in that small little contact zone that, as I shared earlier, we get to remake ourselves as humans. That happens, for me, primarily in story. Our people have known this our entire history. Our people have been making and sharing and celebrating stories for as long as we have been ‘people’. So, to me, it seemed like the most natural way to invite readers into what can perhaps for some folks be an uncomfortable conversation, maybe for some readers, an unfamiliar one, maybe for some readers, sensitive when you’re navigating sensitive, uncomfortable, unfamiliar topics, especially around race and history and identity and harm and all these big feelings that come up in us.
Storytelling feels like a softer way to invite folks in. The book highlights my own stories, not where I’m getting things right, but where I’m also flailing, where I also am bewildered, where I also am sinking into unproductive thoughts. I thought it was really important to highlight that even the author of the book is navigating and grappling with regular human emotions like guilt for having a life of more privilege than many of the communities that I have visited. And what do I do with those big feelings? How do I create spaciousness in me to hold them and not simply fall into my own guilt trip? It’s one thing for me to tell you as a reader, don’t fall into guilt trips in that pedantic way. And it’s another thing to share my own and other traveler’s stories about how we are all navigating these complex ideas as a community. It’s another way of practicing my values, of trying to de-individualize and to create more containers where we can join together and think, share and speak about difficult topics.
Matt Bowles: Well, the book is called Beyond Guilt Trips. That is certainly a central theme throughout the book. Can you share a little bit more about where these feelings of guilt and shame come from? You talked about a lot of times we feel things, but we don’t have the words to explain or even understand why we’re feeling a certain way. And then also how guilt can actually be an impediment to solidarity. And how when we start to feel those things, what types of techniques we can use to try to transcend them into something that’s more constructive.
Anu Taranath: Something that I often remind myself is that I did not make the world the way it is. I just happened to show up into the world with all these hierarchies, with all these systems, with thousands of years of history and hundreds of years of colonial history and slavery and deep racialized capitalism and extractive economies and so many things. I did not create any of that. And because I am living in the world as somebody who’s deepening my own ethics around being a human, I want to grapple with some of these issues. That doesn’t mean that I am responsible for it all. There’s no way that I or you or anyone can be responsible for all that has come before us. And you and I are a part of systems. We benefit perhaps from systems that we did not create. We might have things to share with others in thoughtful, non-patronizing ways, and we can join with other voices to amplify people’s dignity and well-being. Both can be true. And so, the book emerges from this deep commitment to explore both of these things.
The unequalness of the world and our unfair world predates me and you. And here we are showing up, wanting to deepen and strengthen our own ethical backbone. Not to put all of the world’s ills on my shoulders as a martyr, but to engage ethically, dubiously sometimes, but ethically, hopefully most of the times with these big concepts. And because so much has happened before you and I emerged onto the scene, of course we have big feelings around the inequities that we travel through. Of course, we have unsettling feelings about differences that we are noticing in our own lives, in our own communities, close to home or far from home. Of course, we are unsettled.
I think it’s important for us to normalize these uncomfortable, unsettled feelings because it’s somewhat bizarre that we’re taught to suppress and to normalize. Not having uncomfortable feelings about stark inequities in our communities and in our lives and on our earth. How is that possible? So rather than normalizing that, I would rather normalize and create space for you, I and readers to join the conversation and say, yeah, I felt really odd walking through that community in Accra or in Nairobi or in Delhi or in Mumbai. I didn’t quite know how to navigate my way through it. Or traveling as a woman here makes me feel these things versus traveling as a woman here or being a queer traveler makes me think of these kinds of things in this context and differently elsewhere. That’s our reality.
And so, let’s create more space for us to actually say all those things out loud and to create some tools together to navigate our way through it. I can’t fix everything that’s happening in the world. My book doesn’t say, here are the five things you can do to fix inequity. I don’t know how to do that, and if someone knows how to do it, please do it already. But I do know that holding space together, pausing, being able to take a breath, being able to slow our mind, all of that helps us not fall into that easy guilt trip and helps us stay more present to the actual human connection that we might be able to feel with people that we meet.
Matt Bowles: You get into a lot of really interesting, nuanced discussions in this book. I want to ask you about one of the dynamics in the book. You say the notions of going abroad can inadvertently reinforce a brief binary division between home and abroad, where many travelers end up exoticizing difference abroad while refusing to engage with difference at home. And one of the examples that I have heard you talk about is observing white folks from, let’s just say, the U.S. Going to Africa and engaging with black folks in Africa and then coming back in the United States and. And not being as interested in engaging with African American folks in the U.S. can you unpack that a little bit and what you’ve observed, or perhaps how you’ve analyzed that, seeing that over the years?
Anu Taranath: Well, it’s important to begin by saying Blackness looks different in different contexts around the world. Black Americans in the United States are absolutely connected to Africans in Africa and also have their own distinct historical, cultural and social experience from the Americas. So, what I’ve seen is exactly that example that you share. Difference elsewhere seems more manageable. White folks who might not spend much time with black Americans, African Americans here in the United States might feel more open to as a foreigner, speak with South Africans in Cape Town in a very different way than they would in their own context, let’s say wherever they are here in Atlanta. Now, what are the connections between these two examples and what are the disconnections between these two examples?
For me, if our travels abroad don’t make us rethink the ways that we live at home, I’m not sure what we’re doing abroad. It doesn’t mean that you change your life at home 180 degrees just because you went somewhere for a week or two. And if you are finding that you are able to talk to so called different kinds of people with more ease and confidence abroad than you are at home, I hope you are asking yourself why that’s the case. I’m not blaming anybody, but I’m wondering what kinds of systems allow white American travelers, let’s say, to feel emboldened abroad crossing racial boundaries, and yet they might feel stymied crossing racial boundaries at home. Of course, these contexts are very different. Of course, being a traveler for three days or a week in a new context is very different than living somewhere most of your days. These are very different. And yet, if going somewhere else doesn’t help us rethink what’s happening closer to home, we’re not doing travel as best as we can.
Matt Bowles: So how should we think about personal transformation through travel? One of the quotes you have in the book, you say our traveling stories narrate what happens to us internally within our hearts, minds and perspectives towards others. And that our traveling stories don’t end when we return and if we’re open, can guide our lives at home with more equity, intentionality and more meaningful conversations.
Anu Taranath: I suppose this comes down to what we imagine travel to be. If travel is seen as escaping my real life, if travel is seen as I get to be someone else there. If travel is seen as I don’t have to deal with any of the things, I have to deal with at home over there, then there is a natural built separation between who we show up as and how we move in the world over there versus the here, wherever the here is for you. That’s not quite how I move through the world. I have worked hard to have less separations between my hears and my theirs so I can have More flow between the time I spend, let’s say, in Seattle, and the time that I’m in Accra. Of course, the contexts are different. Of course, my positionality is different from a guest versus someone who’s living there. Of course, all of that I acknowledge.
And what would it mean for us as an individual traveler, but also as a community of people stretching their ethical backbone, what would it mean for us to have more flow and less separation between the going there and the being here? If I want to be more mindful and thoughtful at home, I’m still the same person as I go out and about in the world, why wouldn’t I be thinking about that there? And if I want to be more mindful and thoughtful abroad, why wouldn’t I be thinking of that at home? Maybe this also invites us to think about our interconnectedness more intentionally. We can feel fragmented and separate. If I think Accra has nothing to do with Seattle, if Mumbai has nothing to do with Memphis, if we can have these geographic spatial separations, the differences are cultural, linguistic, all of that too. So, there are some real differences between Mumbai and Memphis, for sure.
And Mumbai and Memphis, Seattle and Accra are all navigating hierarchy, are all navigating complex identities, are all navigating people who have less communities that feel under resourced, communities that have been bestowed with over resource. All of these are human issues that show up differently in different contexts. So, for me, as a traveler who wants to move through the world with a global lens, my global lens allows me to see these similar themes wherever I go. That’s what connects me and connects all my travels together. It’s the lens.
Matt Bowles: One of the other parts of the book that I really appreciated is when you talk about what ultimately became sort of a shorthand metaphor that you refer to as ‘helmet to cheek’. And you talk about how there is this high level of importance to have this social justice framework and to be able to identify the unjust power structures and the history and the world that we’re moving through. And at the same time, if our focus is exclusively or too narrow on that, we can oftentimes miss the very simple moments of everyday joy that are happening all around us.
And I really appreciated you talking about that because as someone who has spent a big part of their life doing all sorts of human rights and social justice activist work and being immersed in this stuff, I really do think that that is incredibly important. And I’m wondering if you can just share a little bit about how you came to that realization and why that is so important for us and how we can try to be more present and conscious and look for these moments of joy.
Anu Taranath: Helmet to cheek refers to an afternoon that I had in India. I was sitting in an autorickshaw in impenetrable traffic. Of course, I’m late to wherever I need to go. I’m feeling stressed. All I can see is potholes, and all I can see is traffic rules that no one is obeying. And all I can see is people dispossessed. And my head is filled with so much unjustness. Though I say that I am a social justice warrior, and social justice work usually means we are grappling with social unjustness all the time. And I turn and I look next to me and there’s a family on a scooter near me. What looks like the father and husband is driving. There is a small boy in front of him, standing on the scooter in his uniform, perhaps on his way to school, with a backpack on him. And behind, what I’m assuming is the husband is a woman and she wears no helmet. The driver, the man, wears the helmet, and they are resting at the traffic signal, just like my autorickshaw is.
And I watch this family and I become transfixed by their micro movements together. The wife leans her body against her man, he leans back in this beautiful dance of love. He leans his head back and his plastic helmet rests on her ‘unhelmeted’ cheek. Which is why I calling that moment helmet to chi. And it was the sweetest, most loving embrace that was a non-embrace that I had seen in such a long time. And it’s like I had a spiritual cleanse as I’m watching this take place, because suddenly I am transfixed by the smallness and bigness of their love. It’s such a small moment, but it stays with me for years. I feel emotional even thinking about it now. It stays with me for years. And it reminds me that in the midst of so much injustice, that yes, is systematic, it’s pernicious, it’s institutional, and its hundreds and thousands of years old. In the midst of all of that, let us not forget how ordinary and extraordinary are these small moments of joy, exuberance, connection, love, and holding space for one another.
That small helmet to cheek moment delighted me so much that I went and I told my students about it. And for years afterwards they would be sending me notes about helmet to cheek moments that they had witnessed. It’s not just seeing nice things happen, it’s feeling open, cracked open to receive all of that beauty in that one moment and to fill ourselves up with it. It’s not easy work, only focusing on all that is unjust. There is of course, so much that is unjust that we must focus on if we are to create more dignity, opportunity and better lives for more of us. Of course, we have to focus on the injustice. And I am determined, fervently determined, to create just as much spaciousness in me to notice and appreciate these seemingly small but extraordinary moments that really stay with me. It’s one of my most favorite things to notice and appreciate helmet to cheek moments wherever I am.
Matt Bowles: I love that. I want to ask you about how you have incorporated travel and all of these values in the book into your personal life as a mother and a parent. We have been talking a lot about your students and you’re teaching, but over these last 20 plus years that you’ve been teaching, you have also been raising kids who are now 17 and 20 years old respectively. And so, I’m curious how you brought travel into their lives and the values and perspectives of this book. How did that impact the way that you parented your kids?
Anu Taranath: I shared earlier how I want to live with less fragmentation and less binaries and borders between, let’s say, here or there. Same is true for my work life and my home life. My kids have had the benefit of lots of gatherings that we’ve been having in our home since before they were born, lots of student gatherings, committee organizing, nonprofit work, solidarity groups, or friends just sitting for four-hour meals talking about the state of the world and what we’re doing and how we’re feeling about it. My kids have heard these conversations since they were young.
They heard me share about power and race and identity, connection and disconnection for their whole lives as well. I grew up without any conversation about these kinds of things, and one of my parenting values has been to certainly pass on some of the beautiful things that my family and my parents did for me, but to also have the courage to name the things that didn’t work and to try something different. And not having language to talk about who we are and what that means in a hierarchical society was detrimental for me. And I wanted my kids to have more language. Not only when they came to their gay literature class the first quarter of college like I did, but as they were moving through their space as young people, they were also encountering all the same concepts, of course in smaller version form.
So, we had many conversations when they were small around all of these big issues. Not in the same way as you Would in a college classroom, of course, adapted for a younger person audience, age appropriate, but also being more courageous with them. These are actually ideas that I’m exploring in the new book. So, I’m right in the thick of thinking about how we build more spaces where we can have these kinds of conversations with young people and how the benefits of that are never simply bestowed upon one family. They expand exponentially. That’s what I’ve seen in my own life, that the more courage and honesty and truthfulness we are able to speak about complicated things, that actually invites more people in to create more dignity and well-being for more of us.
So, the kids have traveled alongside me, literally and figuratively over the last 20 years for the big one and 17 years for the not so small one. They participated in many of my tours and programs. I was breastfeeding both kids when they were age one, taking them on tour, passing them from student to student. It was certainly not easy. And it was also such a tremendous joy and privilege to be able to be an AMI alongside being a teacher in these really vulnerable moments in my own education and in the education of my students too.
Matt Bowles: One of the questions that I want to ask you, Anu, that I’ve been thinking about, my academic background, as you know, is in international peace and conflict resolution. And as you can imagine, there’s a lot of dialoguing that goes on in peace and conflict resolution settings and so forth. And one of the things that I think you do very well in your book is you talk about the importance of complexity and nuance and holding space for complexity and for nuance. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you about, just from my own personal background and experiences, is, I don’t know if I want to call this sort of an inverse or a countervailing example, but situations where dominant groups that are benefiting from unjust power structures have an interest in intentionally obfuscating the way that that power structure works in order to maintain it.
Intentionally obfuscating what should otherwise be a pretty morally clear way to oppose that power structure in order to try to demobilize opposition to it and compel people into not saying anything. For example, I think the genocide that’s happening in Palestine right now is a great example of that. Any remotely moral person should obviously oppose this genocide for the same reason they should oppose all genocides. And yet there is an incredibly powerful, well-resourced propaganda machine that is attempting to complicate, convolute, obfuscate, and thereby encourage people to say nothing and to be silent in the face of this genocide.
And I feel like there’s plenty of examples of that where there is this artificial complexity imposed on structures of inequality that should otherwise be very clearly morally abhorrent and should compel people to take action to dismantle them. And I’m wondering if you have any thoughts about that when we talk about complicating and nuancing things, but not validating those types of dominant perspectives and actually in some cases clearing away some of the complications so that we can lay out the moral clarity so that we can mobilize well-meaning people against these power structures.
Anu Taranath: I think you laid that out really beautifully and powerfully. It’s incumbent on us to know when to use complexity as a tool and when we are using it as a smokescreen. These are two different things. They’re not the same thing. We use the same word complexity and both, but they’re not the same thing at all. Using complexity and nuance as tools helps, in my view, deepen our awareness, deepen our understanding, helps us understand the context. So many beneficial things for us.
Using complexity as a smokescreen is politically motivated and it’s usually about maintaining power structures that afford advantages and privileges for some at the expense of many others. The genocide is the most egregious example of this, but it’s happening and has happened in a variety of contexts as well, not just with what’s happening in Gaza now. So as somebody who’s cultivating this ethical backbone, I would like to know and practice, and be careful when I’m using complexity to illuminate context and when I am participating in complexity because there’s fear that the existing structure will crumble.
Matt Bowles: I really appreciate you sharing that and laying it out that way. Anu, let me ask you one more question and then we’ll wrap this up and move into The Lightning Round. When you think back on all of the travel that you’ve done, I’m curious how you feel all, all of that has impacted you as a person and at this point in your life and your journey. I want to circle back to one of the themes that you talked about in the beginning, which is the concept of belonging and how you think about belonging today as the person that you are today.
Anu Taranath: I’ll respond to your prompt in two ways. One is that it’s been a tremendous lifesaver to do work inside me. Inner work, spiritual work, cleaning out my pipes inside around rejection, authority, discipline, shame, guilt, messages that don’t work, messages of control. I won’t say that I am all cleaned out of all that. But I will say that the last few years of doing more work inside has allowed me to feel settled in a way I had never thought was possible when I was younger. It doesn’t mean I don’t have big questions that come up or it doesn’t mean that I don’t get whacked with hard things because that just happens to regular people, of course. So, all of that is there and I’m more settled.
So, the belonging emerges from me much more naturally and easefully now than it did earlier. A second way that I’ll answer your question about travel is that there’s not a day goes by that I don’t think about some experience that I’ve had when I’ve been elsewhere. And the more my worlds merge, the more of a so-called global citizen I feel being able to weave these stories together in my mind and in my heart and in my spirit is what gives weight to any travel that I’ve had. If all these experiences have been significant, the only way to tell is not how many stamps I have in a passport. That’s a really minor way to see somebody’s global impact.
But if there’s significance to any of these opportunities that I’ve been so, so lucky to experience, it’s in how I lead my life. Whether I’m here or there. That’s what matters. So yes, my travels influence and infuse my so called non traveling life because it’s me on both ends of that. Wherever I am, if I am here, it’s still me. If I’m there, it’s still me. And so how I’m moving through the world is the thing that connects the me who’s either here or there.
Matt Bowles: Well, I think that is the perfect place to end the main portion of this interview. And at this point, Anu, are you ready to move in to The Lightning Round?
Anu Taranath: Lay it on me, Matt. Ready.
Matt Bowles: Let’s do it. All right. What is one book other than your own that you would most recommend people should read?
Anu Taranath: I am in the middle of reading Elizabeth Gilbert’s Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear. It’s a book published in 2015 and it’s brilliant in its simplicity and offers some really wonderful ways that we can get back to being the creative beings that we all are.
Matt Bowles: All right, who is one person currently alive today that you’ve never met that you’d most love to have dinner with? Just you and that person for an evening of dinner and conversation?
Anu Taranath: Elizabeth Gilbert. Because I’m right in the middle of her book. So, Liz, you and I, let’s please meet and have dinner.
Matt Bowles: All right, Anu, knowing everything that you know now, if you could go back in time and give one piece of advice to your 18-year-old self, what would you say to 18-year-old Anu?
Anu Taranath: Oh, I would just stroke her hair and I would just put my hand on her cheek and say, oh, baby, it’s okay. You’re going to be so settled. You’re going to be so good later. You’re going to feel all these things that you can’t imagine that you feel. You’re going to be okay. I would tell you.
Matt Bowles: All right, of all the places that you have traveled, what are three of your favorite destinations you would most recommend other people should definitely visit?
Anu Taranath: This was hard to make into a list of three, but I’ll say Senegal, Sri Lanka, and Vietnam.
Matt Bowles: I love those three. I endorse that list. All right, what are your top three bucket list destinations, Places you have not yet been highest on your list you would most love to see.
Anu Taranath: Egypt, Jordan, Cambodia.
Matt Bowles: Amazing. I’ve been to all of those. So, when you are ready to plan those trips, Anu, hit me up. All right, we have arrived at the final question, and this is actually the one that I am most curious and excited about. I want to ask you, outside of India, let’s just say outside of the subcontinent, what are the top three places in the world to get the best Indian food?
Anu Taranath: That is a very heavy hitting question. I love it. With all that we’ve spoken about today.
Matt Bowles: This is in your opinion of the places you’ve been watching, what are your three best memories or experiences with Indian food outside the subcontinent?
Anu Taranath: Well, a new place opened up here in the Seattle region that I am really digging called Taste of Hyderabad. And they have damn good biryani there, which I think I want tonight. So that’s one thing. A second place that I enjoy deeply is a place in Accra called Chilli ji. I took several Ghanaian friends to this Indian restaurant and introduced to them Indian food for the first time. So, it has a lot of special meaning and really tasty food. And the third place outside of the subcontinent that has the best Indian food is undoubtedly my Mama’s Kitchen.
Matt Bowles: I love that. I knew that is amazing. All right, at this point, I want you to let folks know, first of all, what types of services that you offer for people that might be interested in working with you. Can you share a little bit about your consulting services?
Anu Taranath: So, I serve as a racial equity DEI conflict resolution consultant. I work with people across sectors not only the travel industry, but a range of different kinds of institutional spaces and organizations. I work with people one on one for coaching, helping them deal with sticky and tricky topics. As I say, in the travel industry, I am helping to plan and lead various tours to different places. I also serve as a facilitator for other people’s tours if they would like to create a container for their participants. Let’s say it’s a board trip to Nicaragua or a nonprofit trip that’s going to Kenya. Having a facilitator on board to help shepherd the conversations in a particular way is something that I really love doing and would love to do a little bit more of that in this next phase of my life.
Matt Bowles: All right, and the book again, folks, is called Beyond Guilt Trips: Mindful Travel in an Unequal World. It is my number one most recommended book to travelers and digital nomads. You can get it anywhere books are sold. There’s also an audio book that Anu reads herself which you can get as well. We are going to link that up in the show notes but also wherever you get your books, you can just type that in and I’m sure you can get it there.
Anu, if people would like to connect with you, follow you on social media, how can they keep up with all the amazing things that you’re up to?
Anu Taranath: You can find me on Instagram at @dr.anutharanath. You can find me on LinkedIn and at that website anutaranath.com.
Matt Bowles: Alright, we are going to link all of that up in one place along with everything else we have discussed in this episode. You could just go to that themaverickshow.com and go to the show notes for this episode. There you’re going to find a link to the book. You’re going to find a link to all of Anu’s social media handles, how to find and follow and connect with her.
Anu, this was such a special conversation and it was such an honor to speak with you today. Thank you for coming on the show.
Anu Taranath: Matt, my heart is full and I adore you. Thank you.
Matt Bowles: All right, good night, everybody.
